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Talk:Metropolitan Police Service (Earth-616)
Will pleople please stop with this Scotland Yard stuff. Nobody in the UK refers to the Metroploitan Police as Scotland Yard!Tony ingram (talk) God, this has irritated me too much to even type properly. OK, someone is now just being deliberately obtuse. It is not necessary to provide citations for information relating to an organization which is actuially real when that information is common knowledge to at least sixty million people!Tony ingram (talk) :You seems to miss the main points: * It is a metonymy, no big deal * You are the one who is obtuse and you don't even try to understand my point, while I recognize your points (where they apply) * You don't seem to understand the fact that they're differences between Earth-1218 and Earth-616. This is not Wikipedia. That's why when in Marvel: ** If Metropolitan Police officers present themselves as being "of Scotland Yard", even if in Earth-1218 nobody does it, then it is something that's done here. Your point don't apply here, except in trivia or notes where it is interesting. ** In the same way, Marvel Atlas list many regional languages in my country, except for the one I actually talked. Then as far as I know, in Earth-616, that language doesn't exist (ever never or anymore). Yes it is presumably due to lack of research from the authors, but the wikia is about how things works into the Marvel universes. ** Information taken from real life haven't much interest given the fact they may or may not being valid in that universe, and that they don't really offer anything comics-related. Undoniel (talk) 09:05, September 29, 2015 (UTC) The Metroploitan Police Service is the Metropolitan Police Service, whether in the real world or in comics. I consider what you are doing to be essentially deliberate and repeated vandalism, and personally insulting to me as a British citizen. And at this point, I would like to ask for a ruling on the matter from an independant, unbiased site admin.Tony ingram (talk) 10:15, September 29, 2015 (UTC) While it is perfectly possible for a character who is a member of the Met to introduce themselves as being "from Scotland Yard" since that individual character might well actually be based at Scotland Yard for all we know, that does not change the blatantly obvious fact that thevast majority of the more than 30,000 serving officers in the organisation will''never'' be based at Scotland Yard and might never even set foot in it, so it cannot be regarded as a valid term for the entire organisation. If you're an officer based at Penge Police Station, you are demonstrably not from Scotland Yard! Fiuthermore, the terms "the Bill" or "the Old Bill" have been common slang terms used to refer to police in the UK for decades. There was even a long running TV police procedural drama called "The Bill"!Tony ingram (talk) 10:37, September 29, 2015 (UTC) Stating someone is a vandal or is being intolerant (without any proof) isn't a valid argument (or an argument at all). Soooo: * The Metropolitan Police Service is the Metropolitan Police Service. * It is also simplified as "Scotland Yard" in comics, which makes it an alias, even if it is incorrect in the facts in the real world. It is a fact: Prichard come, present himself as "of Scotland Yard", by metonymy to the Metropolitan Police Service. So Scotland Yard is used as an alternative name to the Met by him. It is incorrect for him, unvalid for others, but he did it. You have developed something in the notes, and I added a link to this right next to the alias "Scotland Yard". I am an admin, but I asked for someone else to come. Meanwhile, everything is clear on the page, so leave it that way. Were those common slang terms used in comics ? Because, once again, this is the 616 page. Undoniel (talk) 11:15, September 29, 2015 (UTC) Of course they're used in the bloody comics. Have you never read Captain Britain? And yes, you may indeed be an admin, but you're hardly unbiased in this matter. I'd have thought you might have demonstrated enough respect to leave the page alone until someone who was could rule on it rather than throwing your weight about, but apparently not. Tony ingram (talk) 11:28, September 29, 2015 (UTC) :I have read some of them, without seeing those terms. Instead of removing the "citation" tags in the first place, you should add the references if you know where it is. :Also I disagree with you analysis: I turned the page into a state where all the information was present, that's all. :You could also try to loose your aggressiveness. :Undoniel (talk) 12:08, September 29, 2015 (UTC) ::Hello to all! ::As requested, I have reviewed the matter. It would seem that ours is a problem of interpretation. We are each interpreting what the characters are referring to as different things. ::When a character claims they work for Scotland Yard, Tony believes they are saying they work for Metro and are stationed at Scotland Yard. For the same circumstance, Undoniel believes they literally work for a group by the name of Scotland Yard in Earth-616, regardless of if it is part of Metro or not. ::I believe we can resolve the issue by having both groups of the teams to exist simultaneously on the site. If we take what each character says literally, we can stay completely factual according to the comics while adding conjecture where applicable. ::If the character claims they work for Scotland Yard, then we classify them as literally working for the group named Scotland Yard of Earth-616. If they say they work for the Metro, we classify them as literally working for the Metro. Then, on the Scotland Yard page, we can add text to say that it if Earth-616 is the same as Earth-1218, Scotland Yard is a location that Metro Police are assigned to, and not an organization of individuals. We can further add that it is likely that the writers who had English police claiming they worked 'for Scotland Yard' were likely making a mistake, though an organization by the name of Scotland Yard may independently exist in Earth-616. ::If we ever have clarification in comics confirming this point, we can then merge the pages back into this one. ::I really appreciate Tony's explanation of how Scotland Yard is a location and not a division of the Metro Police Service. It's fascinating to find out the truth behind a common misconception among Americans, (as there are many). ::How does this sound? Are there situations where having both pages until proven otherwise won't work? ::Thanks for your feedback, and your incredible passion for accuracy. :) ::— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 21:18, September 29, 2015 (UTC) There wouldn't actually be a 'group' called Scotland Yard as it is simply a place name. If an officer in the Met ("The Metro" is something different, a free newspaper given away on the London Underground) is stationed at Scotland Yard then they are indeed "from" Scotland Yard, but they would be better described as being from the "Scotland Yard Division" or somesuch. And they would still be an officer in the Met. On the other hand, if an officer is based at any other location in London, they are from the Met, but not from Scotland Yard. The reason Scotland Yard was synonymous with the Met back in the 19th century is simply because back then, the police service was much smaller and was centrally located. But New Scotland Yard, the current site bearing that name, isn't even the original location. The original Scotland Yard was in Whitehall Place, backing onto a road called Great Scotland Yard. When the central HQ was moved, they effectively took the name with them for subsequent buildings as a matter of tradition. Tony ingram (talk) 06:11, September 30, 2015 (UTC) The page now looks a lot better. Thank you. Tony ingram (talk) 06:13, September 30, 2015 (UTC) :You got my point wrong Pete, I don't believe there is a group "Scotland Yard", but that people use the place name to refer to their group (as they do in other medias). Same goes for people naming a government by the capital city, a ministry by its main place name (the fact that the name remained while changing place doesn't change anything). :If a "Scotland Yard Division" of the Met is something that exist on Earth-1218 (therefore existing in 616 by the fact the officers present themselves this way), or proved to exist on Earth-616 as a distinct entity, then it's a fine idea. :If not, then I don't think creating a page for a metonymy is a good idea at all, when we know that Scotland Yard is used in popculture to designate the Met. :Undoniel (talk) 06:29, September 30, 2015 (UTC) I have never heard anyone refer to our government by the name of our capital city, personally. It wouldn't make any sense. And the term Scotland Yard only seems to be used in the way you believe it is these days in American popular culture. I blame old Sherlock Holmes movies. Referring to a Scotland Yard (Division) would be correct so long as the character in question was based there. Dai Thomas, for instance, might well be based there as he's a senior police officer clearly based in Central London. Tony ingram (talk) 06:46, September 30, 2015 (UTC) :Maybe UK medias and politics don't use metonyms, but it makes sense to use a capital city to designate a government, as the government is based there : That's a metonymy. I can't recall for sure that I've read UK metonyms, but it is used in English (example of Washington by an iranian, london on a presumably US site). :By looking at the metonymy wikpedia page, it is also stated " Such usage may persist even when the industries in question have moved elsewhere - for example, Fleet Street continues to be used as a metonym for the British national press, though it is no longer located in the physical street of that name". That's the alsmost the same situation we are dealing with. :By simply searching "scotland yard metonymy", I found this and that wikipedia list, and also this, and this one. This one extend the metonymy only to the HQ of the Met. :(I know wikipedia or even the whole internet is sometimes/often full of bullshit, but still) :So instead of creating a page that has no real use (and is likely the Met, referred to through a metonym), and whose members can't really be identified, I think it would be simpler and more accurate to simply (the lesser of "might", "maybe", etc. the better the wikia) add "Scotland Yard" to the Met's aliases (as it is one of its aliases), with the whole explication text we've added, that explains the incorrect aspect of that use, without simply denying it because it is incorrect because none all officers actually work there. Undoniel (talk) 17:22, September 30, 2015 (UTC) I still don't think this is correct. You seem to be asking everyone to view a British organisation from an American perspective. I can't do that. I'm British, and I know it's not the way anyone here would approach it. To use your other hypothetical example: I have indeed heard Americans use 'Washington' as an alternative to 'the government', but nobody in the UK, and I mean nobody, would use 'London' in the same way-it would just be nonsensical, because 'London' is used as a catchall description for the whole of the Greater London area, not just the city, and even the city doesn't revolve around government. You're basically comparing apples and oranges. And 'Scotland Yard' is not a term interchangeable with the Metropolitan Police. Tony ingram (talk) 19:08, September 30, 2015 (UTC) :Again: Not American. :And to clarify one last time: It's not a matter of perspective, it's a figure of speech used in many languages and countries, including English in England. I am asking you to understand that. :And AGAIN: I haven't said it was an interchangeable term, it is a metonym, which means, once AGAIN, that the term can be used to represent something related. That doesn't mean it is correct, because a metonym isn't meant to be exact, it simply a word to describe to represent something related (I repeat myself in order to be clear). :And about how nobody in the UK using metonyms for London as the country/government or Scotland Yard as the Met: Scotland Yard in the Sunday Times and in the Guardian and London in the Guardian [http://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/sep/03/lehman-collapse-us-uk-blame here as well. :The fact that "'London' is used as a catchall description for the whole of the Greater London area, not just the city" doesn't change anything. As for every big capital city, the term is used as a metonym to different stuff. London doesn't revolve around government ? Nor does most of the cities used in similar metonyms, but the government seat at London, and the government is a form of representation of a country. Similarly, (10) downing street is used as a metonym for the Prime minister and his staff. The address doesn't make diplomatic or politic statements of course, but it is used like here. :I've understood your point, but there is a flaw in it by the fact you don't manage to grasp the meaning of a metonym, hope all above should be enough to explain it finally and prove my point. :Undoniel (talk) 08:31, October 3, 2015 (UTC) From what I can see of that newspaper article, they are not using "Scotland Yard have been asked to look into it" as anything other than a literal statement: they are saying that that Scotland Yard specifically have been asked to investigate something. Look, all I'm asking you to do is to use correct British terminology when referring to something British, if only as a matter of common courtesy. I don't think that's unreasonable, is it? Tony ingram (talk) 12:57, October 3, 2015 (UTC) :It's neither a matter of common courtesy or of British terminology: It's a matter that Scotland Yard is used as a metonym (with a documented, incorrect yet existing and popular use) to refer to the Met: People used a term to design another thing, we can call it that way, it's a valid term originated from an incorrect use (which is explained in my proposition of version of the page). :It is unreasonable to reject every valid argument and every compromise the way you do: Your point is right, but that doesn't make mine wrong, far from it (those two articles and this one seems to be referring to the Met as Scotland Yard). :And even if it is incorrect (but existing) use, on Earth-616, a Met officer presented himself as "of Scotland Yard", which explains why the alias is valid (because in that reality, he is a "native" British while you are an extradimensional (from Earth-1218) British, as well as my region in Earth-616, as far as I know, my regional language doesn't exist, as it wasn't in the list of regional languages existing there in the Marvel Atlas) on the infobox AND requires a notes explaining the issue (that you have and that should be explained) with the use of that name. :Undoniel (talk) 15:08, October 3, 2015 (UTC) I'm sorry, but I genuinely did not even understand half of that last post. You're trying to say that if something from the real world is not specifically referenced in a comic, we should assume it does not exist in that reality? That's bizarre. Tony ingram (talk) 15:13, October 3, 2015 (UTC) Well in my case, yes, I have to assume that given the fact there was a pretty accurate list of regional languages of my country, but not mine, I could assume that it doesn't exist (but that's a specific case with an accurate list and an exception). In most cases, no mention in comics would led to no mention in the wikia (we don't have to assume it exist or not) (and my language wouldn't be included until some proof states it exists, or I could add a note about it, but it wouldn't be really relevant, as the main subject of the wikia is everything Marvel except Earth-1218 in its non-Marvel aspect), because there would be no relevancy). In the case of Scotland Yard, the man presented himself, so that universe seemingly uses that term this way. That's only bizarre if you don't understand the accuracy/relevancy issues of the wikia. Same as UK government being referred to as "London" is nonsensical if you don't understand a metonym. To sum up: * Existing use (UK and outside, popular, in comics, movies, newspapers) * Incorrect use (that can be stated in the infobox and explained in the notes) * Valid use in Earth-616 For the rest: * Referencing information to 1218 is unnecessary (lack of relevancy), a wikipedia link in the bottom of the page would be enough and will be updated by wikipedia people without having wikia editors here losing time updating those Earth-1218 facts. * The page Scotland Yard (Earth-616) does not have use in regard to the precedent points. * The Scotland Yard disambiguation page could also be used to explain that point (with a text similar to the one who was on the Met's page), like on the X-Force page for example, with the Scotland Yard (Headquarters) as a main character of the disambiguation page, and the Metropolitan Police Service (Earth-616) as a other or related. Undoniel (talk) 15:35, October 3, 2015 (UTC) The UK government being referred to as 'London' would be nonsensical regardless of what you do or don't understand, because it simply isn't done, at least in the UK. And please stop insinuating that it's my grasp of English that's deficient. It's not. Tony ingram (talk) 15:39, October 3, 2015 (UTC) ::I understand both of your points, including the use of a metonym. My point is that we have no proof that the Earth-616 version of Scotland Yard is either a metonym OR a specific branch of the Met OR both, and therefore, we cannot assume any are true for Earth-616. ::We must treat each instance as what is literally shown on the page and nothing more, until we are proven otherwise. We are allowed, however, to include conjecture in notes and references. Conjecture, in this case, includes both the fact that 'Scotland Yard' may be a metonym and the fact that if Earth-616 mirrors Earth-1218, it may be a branch of the Met (sorry about the Metros) that is no longer referred to that way. ::Until there is proof in an official Marvel publication explaining what exactly Scotland Yard is, everything else is conjecture. ::There's no real point to continuing the debate the use of the term, as you're both interpreting it differently, (and likely both correctly based on your point of view). ::So how about we stop debating how it's being used and wait until we have actual proof to make this determination? ::The use of 'Scotland Yard (Earth-616)' is necessary because it is literally what is printed on the page. Anything else is interpretation without official documentation. Have either of you checked the handbooks to see if they address this point anywhere? ::— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • • ) 15:48, October 3, 2015 (UTC) I haven't, but I will. Tony ingram (talk) 15:53, October 3, 2015 (UTC) I hate to disagree with the big kahuna, but Undooniel's right. Scotland Yard WAS used as a term to refer to the Met as a whole. Several sourcces confirm that, amongst them wikipedia. I have to admit I don't know enough about english slang to say when this stopped, but there is every reason to assume that this was the usage that was intended by the Marvel authors. As for Tony: You're being a little childish on the whole issue of mmetonymy. Just because you don't use this doesn't make your assumption that no one uses it correct. So - yes, it is an alias and I do not see any necessity or even reason for two pages.--edkaufman (talk) 19:08, October 4, 2015 (UTC) I repeat: all I'm asking for is correct British usage for a British subject. I'm not going through the wiki correcting American spellings, however much they might irritate me. All I'm asking for is for people not to use incorrect terminology. Tony ingram (talk) 19:32, October 4, 2015 (UTC) ::I'm an avid fan of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's literature, and he constantly referred to any member of the Metropolitan Police Service by the simple metonymy of Scotland Yard throughout his various works, regardless of where they were stationed or which part of the United Kingdom the story took place in. Thus it's clear to me that this is more likely than not the understanding and intention of Gerry Conway when he used the term in ''Thor'' #209 and countless other times it's likely been interchanged throughout Earth-616's history. (The fact that Reg works with Sweeney makes this even more probable as well, and thus I'd hope that the content of Scotland Yard (Earth-616) be merged into Metropolitan Police Service (Earth-616), rather than outright deleted.) ::As for claiming this is an American view of a British institution, of course it is, Marvel Comics is an American company, employing primarily American writers, so much of its terminology is going to have been created and most easily understood from an American perspective. It's not intended to be offensive, it's merely a fact of life when dealing with fictional works by a foreign author. -- AnnabellRice (talk) 20:17, October 4, 2015 (UTC) This is still going on? Tony you're the odd man out in yet another argument over a fickle matter. Honestly, this is very much like the last argument you had. I also do not understand why the rest of you are trying to reinvent the wheel with this issue either. There is no middle ground, either we accept a loose terminology or the specific terminology. My contention is that the whole Scotland Yard/Met argument is about as valid an argument as the argument that went on over Nazi Germany/National Socialist German Workers Party. The issue stems from if we go with the official title, or if we refer to the organization or group by what it is commonly known as (as accurate or inaccurate as it may seem). When I speak of "commonly known", I refer to the nomenclature used by a North American audience -- because that is where Marvel Comics originates from. Also Tony, you really need to chill out, if you're getting upset over every minor detail you're taking it far, far too seriously. You're gripes are always clashes between American and British culture. I find that the problems you have are miniscule on the grander scheme of things. I'm Canadian and allow me to tell you I certainly am not fretting over the fact that my American neighbors (who represent the majority of people on this site) aren't writing in the Queen's English. Neither should you. Tit-for-tat: In Marvel Comic books authorities in Canada are always depicted as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Living in Canada, I know that the law enforcement in my country is actually broken up into three divisions: municipal, provincial, and federal. I am certainly not getting bent out of shape over the representations, terminology, or even the depiction of these officers in Marvel publications. What I am getting at is this: it's an American publisher, they're going to generalize international organizations in a way that an American audience will understand them. Arguing over the difference between Scotland Yard and the Metropolitan Police Force is like me complaining that they are not making a distinction between the RCMP and the Ontario Provincial Police. It's actually quite irrelevant at the end of the day. You get tunnel vision over irrelevant details and waste everyone's time and energy bemoaning the situation. Anyhow, the page is now locked from editing until you boys can sort it out. Here's some advice: how about just moving on Tony, clearly you're out numbered in your opinion here (again). As I stressed to you the list time you had a bug up your butt over an issue is that this Wikia is a bit of a democracy. What is commonly accepted is what is depicted. Spending any more time on this issue is a waste when both of you can be doing something more productive on here than bickering back and forth. I mean look at the page itself, it's missing a first appearance, the summary is only a paragraph. The page is lacking in information other than statistical data. If the two of you focused your energies on adding that missing data, it would be far more productive than arguing over such a trivial matter. Honestly, this entire thread is a monument to the amount of time that is being wasted on a useless issue. Nausiated (talk) 11:22, October 5, 2015 (UTC) Thanks Nathan, Artful, Ed, AnnabellRice, Nausiated for your opinions on this matter. Just to complete, other instances of Scotland Yard being used to refer to the Metropolitan Police: * In comics: I've found nothing about a "Scotland Yard division" (I've only went (and completed by the way, less waste of time, more information for the pages) through Captain Britain Vol 1, Super Spider-Man & Captain Britain Vol 1 and ). I've looked general hints, and also checked two famous Met/Yard officers' affiliations. ** : Dai Thomas (after being yelled at by his superior: "I'll get Captain Britain--with or without the Yard's blessing". ** : The Met communicating to STRIKE: "Scotland Yard requests air commando support", reply of Hunter: "Hunter to Scotland Yard". The communication use the place as a metonym for the organization. **Regarding Dai Thomas' affiliation: *** : "Scotland Yard Chief inspector" *** : C.I.D. (and flying squad) *** : C.I.D. *** : "Chief Insp. of the Yard" (can be also be referring to the place) **Regarding Kate Fraser's affiliation *** : Seemingly Dai's partner/subalterne, "Detective-inspector, C.I.D., Metropolitan Police" (and ask a bystander to call Scotland Yard) *** : Dai's assistant (who is still C.I.D.) *** : Metropolitan Police, Dai's assistant * In real life British media: BBC, the Telegraph, the Metro (both tags are applied to an article where the word "Scotland Yard doesn't appear", and the tags pages for Scotland Yard and Metropolitan Police contains articles where the metonym is used largely used) and the Dailymail. Of course in many cases, it could be argued that "Scotland Yard" is used for people who are actually based there and no other ones, or to designated only the headquarters or its specific residents, but that's what is a metonym. There is no group called officially "Scotland Yard", and the building (who isn't named Scotland Yard) can't talk, look for criminals or make statements about terrorism or staff overweight, yet people say it. Nausiated, I have to agree with you on the general matter, with a single detail, the exact subject of the problem. "why the rest of you are trying to reinvent the wheel with this issue either. There is no middle ground, either we accept a loose terminology or the specific terminology ... The issue stems from if we go with the official title, or if we refer to the organization or group by what it is commonly known as". In fact, the problem lies on an even more trivial subject: "Is Scotland Yard a nickname for the Met". The team's official name is used in comics, but the simple fact of adding the well-known metonymic nickname "Scotland Yard" in aliases irritates Tony, and led to another page creation. To sum up: *Both correct name "Metropolitan Police" and metonym/nickname "Scotland Yard" are used, seemingly as in Earth-1218 *Nothing hints it is different *Basing the hypothesis that it isn't like Earth-1218 simply because it might be different, with no further proofs or hints, isn't solid at all. Tony, thanks to stop taking things personally on a subject where there is no point and no reason to do it, and to oppose American and British stuff (because I don't really care and am not personally concerned by that supposed opposition between Anglophones), especially seeing British media themselves seems to use "incorrect terminology" on a daily basis (which is and that that incorrect terminology is simply a speech figure you don't seems to get). On the "moving on" part, given the opinions delivered here, I think it can be done indeed. As far, from what I've understood: * Scotland Yard is a nickname for the Met (alias on the infobox): Edkaufman, Undoniel, AnnabellRice, Nausiated(?) * There is a need for an independent Scotland Yard page: NathanPeteParker, Tony * Can that time-wasting debate come to an end: Nausiated, Undoniel I will start the move of information from Scotland Yard (Earth-616) to Metropolitan Police Service (Earth-616). Undoniel (talk) 12:27, October 5, 2015 (UTC) :Here, Scotland Yard disambiguation, the Scotland Yard (Headquarters) (maybe should we move it to "New Scotland Yard" ?, I added a movetag proposal) and the Metropolitan Police Service (Earth-616) (expanded). I've added the first appearances (listed) of the team, but besides Daredevil stories (who could be among the first appearances) and (at least some of) the vampires' stories, I've no idea if those issues actually features the Met in an interesting perspective worth to be on the page. Undoniel (talk) 13:57, October 5, 2015 (UTC) To conclude definitively: ; Glossary, Scotland Yard's entry, states "Scotland Yard: Colloquial nickname for London's Greater Metropolitan police force". Undoniel (talk) 01:22, November 10, 2015 (UTC)